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The Future of Policing in America

Renee Shaw and guests discuss policies to reform policing in America. Guests include: Peter Kraska, Ph.D., professor in the School of Justice Studies at Eastern Kentucky University; Keturah Herron, policy strategist with the ACLU of Kentucky; Ryan Straw, governmental affairs chair of the Kentucky State Fraternal Order of Police.
Season 28 Episode 15 Length 56:34 Premiere: 05/10/21


Kentucky Tonight

KET’s Kentucky Tonight, hosted by Renee Shaw, brings together an expert panel for in-depth analysis of major issues facing the Commonwealth.

This weekly program features comprehensive discussions with lawmakers, stakeholders and policy leaders that are moderated by award-winning journalist Renee Shaw.

For nearly three decades, Kentucky Tonight has been a source for complete and balanced coverage of the most urgent and important public affairs developments in the state of Kentucky.

Often aired live, viewers are encouraged to participate by submitting questions in real-time via email, Twitter or KET’s online form. Viewers with questions and comments may send an email to or use the contact form. All messages should include first and last name and town or county. The phone number for viewer calls during the program is 800-494-7605.

After the broadcast, Kentucky Tonight programs are available on and via podcast (iTunes or Android). Files are normally accessible within 24 hours after the television broadcast.

Kentucky Tonight was awarded a 1997 regional Emmy by the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. The series was also honored with a 1995 regional Emmy nomination.

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Renee Shaw is the Director of Public Affairs and Moderator at KET, currently serving as host of KET’s weeknight public affairs program Kentucky Edition, the signature public policy discussion series Kentucky Tonight, the weekly interview series Connections, Election coverage and KET Forums.

Since 2001, Renee has been the producing force behind KET’s legislative coverage that has been recognized by the Kentucky Associated Press and the National Educational Telecommunications Association. Under her leadership, KET has expanded its portfolio of public affairs content to include a daily news and information program, Kentucky Supreme Court coverage, townhall-style forums, and multi-platform program initiatives around issues such as opioid addiction and youth mental health.  

Renee has also earned top awards from the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences (NATAS), with three regional Emmy awards. In 2023, she was inducted into the Silver Circle of the NATAS, one of the industry’s highest honors recognizing television professionals with distinguished service in broadcast journalism for 25 years or more.  

Already an inductee into the Kentucky Civil Rights Hall of Fame (2017), Renee expands her hall of fame status with induction into Western Kentucky University’s Hall of Distinguished Alumni in November of 2023.  

In February of 2023, Renee graced the front cover of Kentucky Living magazine with a centerfold story on her 25 years of service at KET and even longer commitment to public media journalism. 

In addition to honors from various educational, civic, and community organizations, Renee has earned top honors from the Associated Press and has twice been recognized by Mental Health America for her years-long dedication to examining issues of mental health and opioid addiction.  

In 2022, she was honored with Women Leading Kentucky’s Governor Martha Layne Collins Leadership Award recognizing her trailblazing path and inspiring dedication to elevating important issues across Kentucky.   

In 2018, she co-produced and moderated a 6-part series on youth mental health that was awarded first place in educational content by NETA, the National Educational Telecommunications Association. 

She has been honored by the AKA Beta Gamma Omega Chapter with a Coretta Scott King Spirit of Ivy Award; earned the state media award from the Kentucky Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in 2019; named a Charles W. Anderson Laureate by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet in 2019 honoring her significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues; and was recognized as a “Kentucky Trailblazer” by the University of Kentucky Martin School of Public Policy and Administration during the Wendell H. Ford Lecture Series in 2019. That same year, Shaw was named by The Kentucky Gazette’s inaugural recognition of the 50 most notable women in Kentucky politics and government.  

Renee was bestowed the 2021 Berea College Service Award and was named “Unapologetic Woman of the Year” in 2021 by the Community Action Council.   

In 2015, she received the Green Dot Award for her coverage of domestic violence, sexual assault & human trafficking. In 2014, Renee was awarded the Anthony Lewis Media Award from the KY Department of Public Advocacy for her work on criminal justice reform. Two Kentucky governors, Republican Ernie Fletcher and Democrat Andy Beshear, have commissioned Renee as a Kentucky Colonel for noteworthy accomplishments and service to community, state, and nation.  

A former adjunct media writing professor at Georgetown College, Renee traveled to Cambodia in 2003 to help train emerging journalists on reporting on critical health issues as part of an exchange program at Western Kentucky University. And, she has enterprised stories for national media outlets, the PBS NewsHour and Public News Service.  

Shaw is a 2007 graduate of Leadership Kentucky, a board member of CASA of Lexington, and a longtime member of the Frankfort/Lexington Chapter of The Links Incorporated, an international, not-for-profit organization of women of color committed to volunteer service. She has served on the boards of the Kentucky Historical Society, Lexington Minority Business Expo, and the Board of Governors for the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. 

Host Renee Shaw smiling in a green dress with a KET set behind her.

Debating Search Warrants, Qualified Immunity, and Other Areas of Law Enforcement Reform

The increasing number of officer-involved killings has intensified calls for new approaches to policing in the commonwealth and across the nation. Reformers want law enforcement to be held more accountable for their actions and to address issues of racial bias in policing.

But some police advocates fear the proposed reforms could make it harder to fight crime and attract quality men and women to the profession.

The issues are complex, which makes honest and open debate about potential solutions to address concerns of racial bias, brutality, and other issues vitally important, says Eastern Kentucky University criminology professor Pete Kraska,

“They’re gut wrenching, they require a lot of soul searching,” says Kraska. “But it’s absolutely necessary given where we’re at.”

For the police on the street, allegations of racism, misconduct, and resistance to change have left some officers feeling vilified, according to Ryan Straw of the Kentucky State Fraternal Order of Police. He says policemen and women and their unions know reform is necessary and are willing to work with their communities to make policing better.

“That doesn’t necessarily mean that law enforcement… is doing things wrong,” says Straw. “But that also doesn’t mean that we that can’t sit down at a table and educate ourselves and also educate other people.”

The president of the Kentucky Association of Police Chiefs says it comes down to trust.

“We have to earn the trust back from the communities,” says Joe Monroe, who is also the chief of the University of Kentucky Police. “You get that trust by having transparency and legitimacy.”

Efforts to Limit No-Knock Warrants

State and local officials have enacted several reform measures in the year since Louisville police officers shot and killed Breonna Taylor during the serving of a search warrant on her apartment.

Last June, Louisville’s Metro Council banned the use of no-knock search warrants in Jefferson County. Such warrants allow police to enter a residence without first knocking or announcing themselves. Now Lexington is considering a similar prohibition.

While state lawmakers stopped short of an outright ban, the 2021 General Assembly enacted new procedures for acquiring no-knock warrants and limits on their use. Straw says the state FOP worked with Senate President Robert Stivers, the sponsor of Senate Bill 4, to address public concerns while maintaining police access to the warrants.

“Statistics show the number of no-knock warrants that are issued in Kentucky are few and far between,” says Straw. “We just didn’t want to lose the tool for the safety of the community.”

Kraska agrees that no-knock warrants are rare but adds that no-knock raids are not. He says research shows that police acquire standard warrants, but then frequently execute them without first knocking or announcing themselves,

“We could ban no-knock warrants tomorrow across the board nationally,” says Kraska. “It’s not going to impact at that great of a level the problem of police using tactical teams to raid people’s homes in the middle of the night. It won’t stop that.”

Beyond how search warrants are carried out, there’s also an issue with how the courts evaluate and approve search warrant requests. As a former public defender, Walter Katz says he witnessed an approval process that was too easy.

“You’d see investigators walk in with a search warrant, see a judge basically leaf through it, have some casual chats with the detective, and sign it and the detectives are on their way,” says Katz, who is vice president of criminal justice for Arnold Ventures, an advocacy group that focuses on criminal justice, health care, education, and tax policy reforms.

State Attorney General Daniel Cameron has assembled a task force to review the search warrant process in the commonwealth. The group includes lawmakers, prosecutors, law enforcement, community leaders and representatives of the NAACP. Monroe says he hopes that diverse group will develop strong criteria for obtaining no-knock warrants.

“By doing that, we’re going to be able to look and see if we can make Kentucky a best model… for search warrants,” says Monroe.

ACLU of Kentucky policy strategist Keturah Herron was among those advocating for a statewide ban on no-knock warrants. She says Senate Bill 4 is a good first step but adds that it doesn’t do enough to sanction officers and police departments who violate the new procedures.

“We can do all of these different reforms, but what happens when police still do that? How are they held accountable and responsible?” Herron says. “As far as hard accountability against that individual and the department as a whole, we still have not seen that in Kentucky.”

Herron also says she hopes something meaningful will come from Cameron’s task force, but she says she has little trust in the attorney general. Cameron declined to recommend murder charges to a grand jury assigned to investigate the actions of the Louisville Metro Police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s death.

Decertifying Police for Misconduct

The General Assembly also passed a measure to make it easier to decertify police officers found guilty of crimes. Senate Bill 80 is meant to prevent an officer charged with misconduct in one department from leaving and finding work in another department without facing any kind of disciplinary action.

“Nobody hates a bad police officer more than a good police officer,” says Monroe. “This bill really strengthened the ability for law enforcement executives to push for decertification of those officers to keep them from resigning and going to another agency. That happens way too much in this country.”

The police chiefs’ association worked with the FOP on the bill, according to Straw. He agrees that “bad eggs” shouldn’t be able to jump from one department to another, but he adds that those officers accused of misconduct must be treated fairly.

“If you’re charged with a crime, you get due process, and we just wanted that for police officers, too,” says Straw.

Police decertification in some form exists in 46 states, according to Katz. But he says many of those laws only cover officers convicted of a felony, and usually do not address the practice of department hopping.

Reformers have called for a national database of bad officers to make it harder for them to move to another agency. Monroe says Senate Bill 80 establishes a database for Kentucky but does not mandate that police departments use it.

“Law enforcement doesn’t want to appear that they were wrong and that’s part of the problem in reform,” says Monroe. We have to put our egos aside. We know that we are part of the problem and we have to correct that problem.”

The FBI maintains a national database about incidents involving the use of force by police that results in someone’s death or serious injury. But Katz says only about 40 percent of departments contribute information to it. He says police should be required to collect a range of data from use of force to traffic stops and make that information available to the public and researchers.

Protections from Civil Liability

Bipartisan talks are under way in Congress on a federal police reform bill that is named for George Floyd, the Black man who died after a Minneapolis policeman kneeled on his neck for more than nine minutes. One reported sticking point in the negotiations is the issue of qualified immunity, which shields police officers from civil suits arising out of actions they take while on duty.

Herron says addressing qualified immunity is a necessary first step in any kind of police reform.

“If we’re not talking about ending qualified immunity, then we’re not talking about anything,” says Herron. “We can do all the reform in the world but until police are held accountable for the misconduct and for brutalizing communities and terrorizing communities, we’re not doing anything.”

Katz says settlements against police officers and departments are reaching $500 million a year. Still, he says the existing standards governing qualified immunity make it absurdly difficult for plaintiffs to even pursue a case against a police officer. Instead of forcing the plaintiff to prove the policeman or woman didn’t act legally, Katz says the burden should be on the officer to show that he or she did follow policy.

“The effort to reform qualified immunity is to decrease that absurdity by altering the standard,” says Katz.

But Straw says protecting qualified immunity is critical to attracting and retaining good officers on the beat. And despite what people think, he says, the immunity doesn’t provide blanket protection for law enforcement.

“It sounds like they can go out there and do whatever they want and know that they’re protected, but it’s just not the case,” says Straw.

Even when the courts do allow a case against an officer to proceed, it’s unlikely the officer will ever pay any settlement money, according to Katz. He says 99 percent of the time the damages against an officer are paid by his or her employer.

“For the most part, police officers are not being held personally liable,” says Katz. “They’re not actually writing the check. The taxpayers are.”

Addressing Racial Bias

Katz says data bears out what civil rights activists have argued for years: There is a significant difference in who police target in traffic stops, searches, arrests, and use-of-force incidents.

“Those types of disparities are what really drives a lot the trust issues in Black and brown communities,” says Katz. “That type of conduct is what really impacts trust and therefore undermines legitimacy of policing.”

Kraska and Herron blame what they describe as outdated policies, such as the war on drugs, for generating racial disparities. Kraska says for the last 25 years police have been trained to proactively stop people to look for the possibility of criminality.

Such traffic stops are a beneficial policing tool, according to Straw. He points to how a routine traffic stop led to the capture of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVey.

But reformers argue that people of color comprise a disproportionate share of those detained in traffic stops. And sometimes those stops can go very wrong. Last month, 20-year-old Duante Wright was killed by a police officer in suburban Minneapolis during a traffic stop. Police say they stopped Wright for an expired registration tag. Wright’s mother, who spoke by phone with her son just moments before he was shot, says he was stopped for having an air freshener dangling from his rear-view mirror. That led some to accuse the police of using the air freshener as an excuse to target a young Black man.

“Law enforcement aren’t trained to stop people based on an air freshener on a mirror. There has to be a bigger reason,” says Straw. “If officers are stopping people like that, they’re not doing what they’re supposed to be doing.”

While updating policies can happen through legislation, addressing racism among police officers is a very different challenge. Kraska says concerns about racial bias among law enforcement is not a judgment against all officers. But where racism does exist, he says it must be taken seriously.

“We talk a lot about implicit bias… and I think it’s part of the reckoning that we have to do,” says Kraska. “There is a regressive element in policing that doesn’t just have implicit bias. It has explicit bias.”

The Black Lives Matter movement and news coverage of office-involved shootings have forced police departments to take a harder look at bias issues. Monroe says that should occur at all ranks of a department, but it must start at the top.

“A police leadership team has to create that culture of diversity and inclusion,” says Monroe. “That’s what leads to the success in policing.”

More consistent policies and better training might help, but the decentralized law enforcement system makes that challenging. Katz says there are 18,000 police departments across the U.S., including 400 in Kentucky. More than half of those departments have fewer than 50 officers; a quarter of them have fewer than 10, according to Katz.

“Where are they going to find the time… and the financial resources to do that training for their officers?” says Katz. “Is there perhaps an opportunity here to consolidate some of these fragmented departments so we have more unified policy and training and funding for police departments?”

Defund or Reallocate?

A common refrain in the protests of the past year is “defund the police.” But Kraska says that would likely create more problems.

“You could defund police departments and it’s not going to reform them,” he says. “It might make things worse. It might make them approach the community in a more antagonistic way than they are right now in some areas.”

A better solution, Kraska says, is to remove tasks that police do not do well from their official duties. For example, he says research indicates that law enforcement personnel don’t make good school resource officers.

Herron would also remove police from dealing with mental health crises. Some departments are adding social workers and mental health professionals to help respond to those types of calls. Instead of defunding, she advocates a reallocation of funds.

“I think that we have to divest from policing and invest in communities to make sure that people have what they need,” says Herron.

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Season 28 Episodes

City and County Issues

S28 E38 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 12/13/21

Compensating College Athletes: Name, Image and Likeness

S28 E36 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 11/22/21

Trends in State and National Politics

S28 E35 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 11/15/21

Abortion Rights and Restrictions

S28 E34 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 11/08/21

Kentucky's Social Services System

S28 E33 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 11/01/21

School Choice in the Commonwealth

S28 E32 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 10/25/21

Historical Horse Racing: A Growing Pastime in Kentucky

S28 E31 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 10/11/21

New Developments and the Unknowns of COVID-19

S28 E30 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 10/04/21

COVID and the Classroom

S28 E29 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 09/27/21

Remembering 9/11, 20 Years Later

S28 E28 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 09/13/21

Kentucky's Response to COVID-19

S28 E27 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 08/30/21

Discussing the Surge of COVID-19 Cases in Kentucky

S28 E26 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 08/23/21

Fancy Farm Preview and State Politics

S28 E25 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 08/02/21

Back-To-School Issues in Kentucky

S28 E24 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 07/26/21

Childcare Challenges

S28 E23 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 07/19/21

The Urban-Rural Divide in Kentucky

S28 E22 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 07/12/21

Work Shifts: Kentucky's Labor Shortage and Hiring Challenges

S28 E21 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 06/28/21

Public Infrastructure: What Kentucky Needs

S28 E19 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 06/21/21

Debating Critical Race Theory

S28 E18 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 06/14/21

Kentucky's Rebound From COVID-19

S28 E17 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 06/07/21

Jobs and the Economy

S28 E16 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 05/17/21

The Future of Policing in America

S28 E15 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 05/10/21

President Biden's First 100 Days

S28 E14 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 05/03/21

Mass Shootings and Gun Laws

S28 E13 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 04/26/21

Voting Rights and Election Laws

S28 E12 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 04/20/21

The 2021 General Assembly: Debating Major Legislation

S28 E11 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 04/12/21

Wrapping Up the 2021 General Assembly

S28 E10 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 03/29/21

School Choice in Kentucky

S28 E9 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 03/22/21

No-Knock Warrants

S28 E8 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 03/15/21

Debating Legislative Priorities in the 2021 General Assembly

S28 E7 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 03/08/21

Proposed Legislation to Modify Kentucky Teachers' Pensions

S28 E6 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 02/22/21

Debating Historical Horse Racing Legislation

S28 E5 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 02/08/21

New Lawmakers in the 2021 Kentucky General Assembly

S28 E4 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 02/01/21

A Nation Divided

S28 E3 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 01/18/21

Recapping the Start of the 2021 General Assembly

S28 E2 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 01/11/21

Previewing the 2021 General Assembly

S28 E1 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 01/04/21

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Renee Shaw and guests discuss early childhood education. Scheduled guests: State Senator Danny Carroll (R-Benton), chair of the Senate Families and Children Committee and sponsor of the Horizons Act, SB 203, that addresses the child-care industry needs in Kentucky; State Senator Cassie Chambers Armstrong (D-Louisville), member of the Senate Families and Children Committee; Sarah Vanover, Ed.D., author of America's Child-Care Crisis: Rethinking an Essential Business, and policy and research director for Kentucky Youth Advocates; Kate Shanks, vice president of public affairs at the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce; Brigitte Blom, president & CEO of the Prichard Committee for Academic Excellence; and Andrew McNeill, president of Kentucky Forum for Rights, Economics & Education (KYFREE). A 2024 KET production.

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Abortion Legislation - S30 E41

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