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Public Assistance and Jobless Benefits

Renee Shaw and guests discuss legislation concerning public assistance and jobless benefits. Guests: Dustin Pugel, senior policy analyst at the Kentucky Center for Economic Policy; Bryan Sunderland, state government affairs director for the Foundation for Government Accountability; Bill Londrigan, president of the Kentucky State AFL-CIO; and Anne-Tyler Morgan, attorney and McBrayer PLLC member.
Season 29 Episode 12 Length 56:33 Premiere: 03/28/22

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Kentucky Tonight

KET’s Kentucky Tonight, hosted by Renee Shaw, brings together an expert panel for in-depth analysis on major issues facing the Commonwealth.

This weekly program features comprehensive discussions with lawmakers, stakeholders and policy leaders that are moderated by award-winning journalist Renee Shaw. Often aired live, viewers are encouraged to participate by submitting questions real-time via email, Twitter or KET’s online form.
For nearly three decades, Kentucky Tonight has been a source for complete and balanced coverage of the most urgent and important public affairs developments in the state of Kentucky.

Viewers with questions and comments may send e-mail to kytonight@ket.org or use the contact form. All messages should include first and last name and town or county. The phone number for viewer calls during the program is 1-800-494-7605.

After broadcast, Kentucky Tonight programs are available on KET.org and via podcast (iTunes or Android). Files are normally accessible within 24 hours after the television broadcast.

Kentucky Tonight was awarded a 1997 regional Emmy by the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. The series was also honored with a 1995 regional Emmy nomination.

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Renee Shaw is Moderator and Director of Public Affairs for Kentucky Educational Television, currently serving as host of KET’s Kentucky Tonight, Connections, election coverage, Legislative Update and KET Forums.

Since joining KET in 1997, Shaw has produced numerous KET public affairs series and specials, including KET’s nationally recognized legislative coverage. Under her leadership, KET has expanded its portfolio of public affairs content to include Kentucky Supreme Court coverage, town hall-style forums, and multi-platform program initiatives around issues such as opioid addiction and youth mental health.  

As an award-winning journalist, Shaw has earned top awards from the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, earning two regional Emmy awards, and an award from the Kentucky Associated Press for political coverage of the state legislature. She was inducted into the Kentucky Civil Rights Hall of Fame in 2017. She has been honored by the AKA Beta Gamma Omega Chapter with a Coretta Scott King Spirit of Ivy Award; earned the state media award from the Kentucky Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in 2019; named a Charles W. Anderson Laureate by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet in 2019 honoring her significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues; earned the Anthony Lewis Media Award from the Kentucky Department of Public Advocacy for her work on criminal justice reform in 2014; and, in 2015, received the Green Dot Award for her coverage of domestic violence, sexual assault and human trafficking.  

In 2018, KET earned a national media award from Mental Health America for its multi-dimensional content on the opioid epidemic shepherded by Shaw. That same year, she co-produced and moderated a six-part series on youth mental health that was awarded first place in educational content by NETA, the National Educational Telecommunications Association. In 2019, Shaw was recognized by The Kentucky Gazette as one of the 50 most notable women in Kentucky politics and government. In addition, Renee was awarded the Charles W. Anderson Laureate Award by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet which recognizes individuals who have made significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues.

Host Renee Shaw smiling in a green dress with a KET set behind her.

Guest Debate Merits of State Legislation That Reduces Unemployment, Medicaid, and Food Stamp Benefits

As part of the busy 2022 General Assembly session, lawmakers passed overhauls to programs designed to help Kentuckians during times of hardship: House Bill 4 makes changes to unemployment benefits while House Bill 7 updates access to public assistance programs like Medicaid and food stamps.

HB 4 will become law after legislators overrode a veto from Gov. Andy Beshear, who said the measure goes against common sense and Kentucky values. He contends it will harm workers, families, and rural communities, while not improving the state’s lagging workforce participation rate.

The legislation reduces jobless benefits from the current 26-week maximum to between 12 to 24 weeks, depending on unemployment trends at the time.

“House Bill 4 is designed to help get people back into the workforce and it will increase the job participation rate,” says Bryan Sunderland, state government affairs director for the Foundation for Government Accountability. “When times are good like they are now, with 167,000 open jobs in Kentucky and a really low unemployment rate, you still get three months to help find a job, and if the economy turns sour, you get more weeks of benefits.”

That change, though, would decrease benefits from an average of $9,400 for 26 weeks down to about $4,400 for 12 weeks, according to Kentucky AFL-CIO President Bill Londrigan. He says that’s money unemployed workers need to pay their household bills and feed their families.

“I just think this is a very terrible way to treat the workers of Kentucky who get laid off due to no fault of their own and who need a helping hand to get to their next job,” says Londrigan.

Opponents also criticize how tying benefits to a statewide index of unemployment will hurt already economically disadvantaged regions of the state. They contend the overall unemployment rate for Kentucky could be lower than local rates in struggling communities, yet people in those places would still get fewer weeks of benefits. Critics say that will lead to a further depopulation of those areas as people leave to find work elsewhere.

Kentuckians would also be at risk of losing their benefits after only six weeks if they decline a job offer even if the new position pays less than the job they lost. Dustin Pugel, senior policy analyst at the Kentucky Center for Economic Policy, says that will result in people making less money in jobs for which their work experience could be a poor match.

“So it’s not only worse for those workers who are going to end up with lower wages,” says Pugel, “it’s worse for employers and it’s worse for the economy overall because the skillsets that they’ve been developing over a lifetime are no longer being put to use.”

Advocates of HB 4 argue it’s important to get people back into the workforce even at lower wages, and then they can climb their way back into higher paying positions.

“I just don’t believe the premise that a person should wait until the perfect job comes along is the right way for them to find employment,” says Anne-Tyler Morgan, an attorney with McBrayer PLLC. “Getting them back into the workforce and then able to look for a job in their field is the ramp that’s recommended by this bill.”

The bill does incentivize unemployed individuals to pursue job training and certifications by offering them an additional five weeks of unemployment benefits while they train. Sunderland says that can encourage them to retool their skills for in-demand fields.

But Londrigan says people will still have to pay for that job training, which will create another financial burden during an already difficult time. Pugel warns that states that have reduced their benefits below the 26-week national standard have failed to see improved labor participation rates or a reduction in the number of available jobs.

Changes to Public Assistance Programs

On the last evening before the veto period, the House of Representatives gave final passage to new rules for public assistance benefits. HB 7 includes a public engagement requirement for able-bodied adults on Medicaid who have no dependents. It also changes the reporting requirements for people on benefits to disclose changes in income or life circumstance, and imposes tougher sanctions against those committing welfare fraud. The legislation also calls for a study of the so-called benefits cliff in which people suddenly lose all of their public assistance simply by earning a few dollars more than the income requirements for those programs.

The Kentucky Center for Economic Policy reported that as many as 200,000 Kentuckians could lose their Medicaid benefits under HB 7, and thousands more could lose access to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or SNAP.

“We don’t think that this is a really good way forward for either improving the safety net or helping people get back to work,” says Pugel.

If the goal is moving people back into the workforce, Pugel says the state should promote child care for working parents, services to help those caring for an elderly or disabled family member, and higher wages for workers.

Morgan says claims of thousands of needy Kentuckians losing their benefits under HB 7 are wildly overstated.

“Under this bill, the only benefits that will be lost are if people take illegal action with regard to their benefits or if they’re able-bodied with no dependents and refuse… to work,” says Morgan.

Earlier versions of the bill had stricter reporting requirements that Pugel says would’ve have been difficult for benefit recipients to comply with, and place more administrative burden on the Cabinet for Health and Family Services to track. He says most people don’t lose their benefits because they don’t qualify, but rather because they’ve failed to complete the necessary paperwork

Sunderland says the state Medicaid rolls have skyrocketed, going from just under 15 percent of the state’s population in 2000 to a full third of the population in 2020. He says that increased enrollment has come with extensive fraud and higher costs. For example, he says Kentucky’s Medicaid expenses jumped 25 percent from 2016 to 2020. All these factors combined show that Medicaid is failing as a benefits program, according to Sunderland.

“The objective is to give people the resources and the help when they need it and to help them graduate from the program into a job, but the structure of the program is not designed to meet that objective,” says Sunderland. “The problem with most of our public assistance programs is they’re not paying people to get back to work, they’re paying people to stay poor.”

But Pugel and Londrigan argue that misses a critical reality for many of the working poor: That most people on Medicaid and SNAP are employed, but their jobs pay so little that they still qualify for public assistance. They also say that claims of widespread fraud among recipients are overblown.

“This really is an effort to push people off of these benefit programs,” says Londrigan. “The goal should be to uplift people, to give them the opportunity to succeed, and to provide for their families when they’re in tough economic circumstances.”

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Season 29 Episodes

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S29 E44 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 01/30/23

Kentucky's Juvenile Justice System

S29 E43 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 01/23/23

Legislation Introduced in the 2023 General Assembly

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2023 Legislative Session Preview

S29 E41 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 12/19/22

National Politics

S29 E40 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 12/05/22

2022 Election Preview

S29 E39 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 11/07/22

Inflation and the Economy

S29 E38 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 10/31/22

Constitutional Amendments 1 & 2

S29 E37 Length 56:36 Premiere Date 10/24/22

Candidates for U.S. House of Representatives: Part Two

S29 E36 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 10/17/22

Candidates for U.S. House of Representatives: Part One

S29 E35 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 10/10/22

U.S. Senate Candidate Charles Booker

S29 E34 Length 26:31 Premiere Date 10/03/22

Discussing Flooding's Impact on Eastern Kentucky Schools

S29 E33 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 09/26/22

COVID-19, Monkeypox and Influenza

S29 E32 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 09/12/22

Eastern Kentucky Flooding and Legislative Relief Package

S29 E31 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 08/29/22

Child Care in Kentucky

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School Safety: Debating State Policies

S29 E29 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 08/01/22

Work, Wages and Welfare

S29 E28 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 07/25/22

50 Years of Title IX

S29 E26 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 07/18/22

The Impact of U.S. Supreme Court Decisions

S29 E24 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 07/11/22

Kentucky's Ban on Abortion

S29 E23 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 06/27/22

Discussing New Developments in the COVID-19 Pandemic

S29 E22 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 06/20/22

Reducing Opioid Addiction Rates in Kentucky

S29 E21 Length 56:36 Premiere Date 06/13/22

Mass Shootings and Gun Laws

S29 E20 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 06/06/22

Discussing the Rise in Gas Prices and Inflation

S29 E19 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 05/23/22

Previewing Kentucky's 2022 Primary Election

S29 E18 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 05/16/22

Third Congressional District Democratic Primary

S29 E17 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 05/09/22

Candidates in the 2022 Primary Election: Part Two

S29 E16 Length 58:33 Premiere Date 05/02/22

Candidates in the 2022 Primary Election: Part One

S29 E15 Length 58:40 Premiere Date 04/25/22

Lawmakers Review the 2022 General Assembly

S29 E14 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 04/18/22

Recap of the 2022 Legislative Session

S29 E13 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 04/11/22

Public Assistance and Jobless Benefits

S29 E12 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 03/28/22

Abortion Legislation in the 2022 General Assembly

S29 E11 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 03/21/22

State Budget, Taxes, and Other 2022 General Assembly Topics

S29 E10 Length 57:42 Premiere Date 03/14/22

Critical Race Theory and Approaches to Teaching History

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2022 Legislative Session at the Midpoint

S29 E8 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 02/21/22

Name, Image and Likeness Compensation

S29 E7 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 02/14/22

Child Abuse and Neglect

S29 E6 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 02/07/22

Debating School Choice in Kentucky

S29 E5 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 02/01/22

Debating Provisions in the Proposed State Budget

S29 E4 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 01/24/22

Redistricting, State Budget, and Other Legislative Issues

S29 E3 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 01/10/22

Discussing Legislative Goals for the 2022 General Assembly

S29 E2 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 01/03/22

Previewing the 2022 Kentucky General Assembly

S29 E1 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 12/06/21

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