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A Discussion of Gun Laws

Renee Shaw and guests discuss gun laws. Guests: Whitney Austin, mass shooting survivor and gun safety advocate; Rich Zimmer, president of the League of Kentucky Sportsmen; Mark Bryant, executive director of the Gun Violence Archive; and State Sen. Whitney Westerfield (R-Fruit Hill), chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee (via video call).
Season 30 Episode 15 Length 56:34 Premiere: 06/05/23

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Kentucky Tonight

KET’s Kentucky Tonight, hosted by Renee Shaw, brings together an expert panel for in-depth analysis on major issues facing the Commonwealth.

This weekly program features comprehensive discussions with lawmakers, stakeholders and policy leaders that are moderated by award-winning journalist Renee Shaw. Often aired live, viewers are encouraged to participate by submitting questions real-time via email, Twitter or KET’s online form.
For nearly three decades, Kentucky Tonight has been a source for complete and balanced coverage of the most urgent and important public affairs developments in the state of Kentucky.

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After broadcast, Kentucky Tonight programs are available on KET.org and via podcast (iTunes or Android). Files are normally accessible within 24 hours after the television broadcast.

Kentucky Tonight was awarded a 1997 regional Emmy by the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. The series was also honored with a 1995 regional Emmy nomination.

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Renee Shaw is Moderator and Director of Public Affairs for Kentucky Educational Television, currently serving as host of KET’s Kentucky Tonight, Connections, election coverage, Legislative Update and KET Forums.

Since joining KET in 1997, Shaw has produced numerous KET public affairs series and specials, including KET’s nationally recognized legislative coverage. Under her leadership, KET has expanded its portfolio of public affairs content to include Kentucky Supreme Court coverage, town hall-style forums, and multi-platform program initiatives around issues such as opioid addiction and youth mental health.  

As an award-winning journalist, Shaw has earned top awards from the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, earning two regional Emmy awards, and an award from the Kentucky Associated Press for political coverage of the state legislature. She was inducted into the Kentucky Civil Rights Hall of Fame in 2017. She has been honored by the AKA Beta Gamma Omega Chapter with a Coretta Scott King Spirit of Ivy Award; earned the state media award from the Kentucky Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in 2019; named a Charles W. Anderson Laureate by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet in 2019 honoring her significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues; earned the Anthony Lewis Media Award from the Kentucky Department of Public Advocacy for her work on criminal justice reform in 2014; and, in 2015, received the Green Dot Award for her coverage of domestic violence, sexual assault and human trafficking.  

In 2018, KET earned a national media award from Mental Health America for its multi-dimensional content on the opioid epidemic shepherded by Shaw. That same year, she co-produced and moderated a six-part series on youth mental health that was awarded first place in educational content by NETA, the National Educational Telecommunications Association. In 2019, Shaw was recognized by The Kentucky Gazette as one of the 50 most notable women in Kentucky politics and government. In addition, Renee was awarded the Charles W. Anderson Laureate Award by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet which recognizes individuals who have made significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues.

Host Renee Shaw smiling in a green dress with a KET set behind her.

Panelists Review Legislation Designed to Protect Constitutional Rights and Improve Public Safety

When news of the Old National Bank shooting in Louisville broke the morning of April 10, Whitney Austin watched the coverage in disbelief.

The scenario was all too familiar for Austin. In 2018, as she reported to work at the Fifth Third Bank headquarters in Cincinnati, Austin was struck 12 times in a mass shooting that left four people dead.

Since then, the Louisvillian has devoted her life to finding common sense solutions to gun violence that address the interests of two sides often at odds with each other.

“It’s really important to balance the rights of gun owners but also balance the rights of everyday Americans who want to feel safe in our communities,” says Austin. “We just don’t anymore.”

According to the Gun Violence Archive website, more than 18,000 Americans have died already this year in mass shootings and in suicides and homicides by firearms. That includes the six people killed at the Louisville bank massacre in April.

Mark Bryant, executive director of the archive, says gun violence spiked in 2021 with 21,009 deaths. The tally dipped in 2022, but Bryant says 2023 is on track to set another record.

“We’re seeing more mass shootings, we’re more public shootings, we’re seeing more individual shootings,” says Bryant, “somewhere in the range of 10 to 12 percent more at this point in the year.”

And the “busy season” for gun violence is just arriving, according to Bryant. He says the summer months are especially dangerous because that’s when more people congregate outdoors, socialize, and consume alcohol.

Even some gun rights advocates are concerned by the potential for record levels of firearms-related injuries and deaths this year.

“It’s scary.” says League of Kentucky Sportsmen President Rich Zimmer. “It’s very alarming to why we’re having so much gun violence in the United States and in Kentucky.”

Zimmer attributes the shootings not to the prevalence of firearms, but to insufficient gun safety education as well as a lack of conflict resolution skills and poor mental health among Americans.

But even with the dire prospects for the year ahead, and near daily news of a mass shooting somewhere in the United States, Austin says she remains hopeful.

“With great tragedy comes opportunity for us to come together and to figure out where we are aligned on this issue and where we can make progress,” says Austin. “There are many very positive conversations happening within the state legislature in Frankfort that make me believe that we can see change on this issue.”

Removing Guns from Those Who Pose an Imminent Threat

Austin and her non-profit organization Whitney/Strong have proposed legislation called Crisis Aversion and Rights Retention (CARR). Similar to so-called red flag laws in other states, CARR would create a process whereby a court could order the temporary removal of firearms from the possession of someone deemed to be an imminent threat to themselves or others.

CARR legislation had bipartisan support in the 2022 General Assembly session from then-state Senators Paul Hornback, a Shelbyville Republican, and Morgan McGarvey, a Louisville Democrat. (Both have since left the legislature.)

While that proposal stalled, current Senate Judiciary Committee Chair Whitney Westerfield (R-Fruit Hill) says he is working on an updated CARR bill that would address due process concerns voiced by gun rights advocates. Under existing CARR language, the person facing a potential temporary removal of their guns doesn’t have a voice in the court proceeding to determine if he or she is an imminent danger.

“I am in favor of making sure that we can take care of those people and remove those weapons if they are in danger,” says Zimmer, “but we need to have a good due process to make sure that person is able to represent themselves or have somebody represent (them).”

Such ex parte hearings, explains Westerfield, preclude an individual from explaining why he or she is not a risk, or mounting a defense against a potentially fraudulent claim by friend or family member who wants the weapons removed. On the other hand, Westerfield says if a person knows they may be about to lose their guns, that could incite them to take some dangerous action.

“That’s the argument that’s going back and forth, and trying to find something in the middle, there is the difficulty from a constitutional perspective,” says Westerfield. “I’d like to think that we could come up with something that meets in the middle.”

“You’ve got a lot of lawmakers in both parties,” he adds, “who have an interest in finding some sort of middle ground here and that’s where good policy can be born.”

Austin, who is a gun owner, says she’s happy to discuss changes to CARR as long as they protect vulnerable individuals. She says the legislation is meant to prevent more than just mass shootings. The majority of gun deaths in Kentucky, according to Austin, are from suicides by firearms. A disproportionate number of those deaths are in rural areas, she says.

“We’ve got to make sure that wherever we land,” says Austin, “it’s actually going to protect gun owners that are in a crisis moment.”

If state lawmakers did pass CARR, Austin says Kentuckians will need to know how to use it. She says the Safer Communities Act passed by Congress last year includes funding for such public education campaigns. She says Kentucky already has those federal dollars just waiting to be used.

Another challenge with CARR and red flag laws in general is the speed with which the courts and law enforcement can act to remove firearms from someone’s possession when deemed warranted. For example, Bryant says a red flag law in Utah failed to protect a family of seven who died in a murder-suicide incident in January.

“We’ve got to be able to move on this,” says Bryant. “We can’t hide behind the Second Amendment.”

Other Gun Safety Options

Even before the Old National Bank shooting, Louisville Mayor Craig Greenberg, a Democrat, called on state legislators to change the law that allows weapons confiscated by law enforcement to be sold at public auctions administered by the Kentucky State Police.

“Forcing Louisville Metro Government to turn [a gun] over knowing there is a good chance it ends up back on our streets doesn’t make public safety sense,” Greenberg said in February.

Westerfield, who plans to retire from the General Assembly at the end of his current term, says such a change to state law is a “no brainer” and should be an “easy thing to pass.” But Zimmer says law enforcement agencies depend on proceeds from confiscated weapons auctions to pay for equipment purchases and other functions. For example, he says the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife uses auction proceeds to support educational programs and habitat restoration.

“Those funds are being reused for positive purposes,” says Zimmer.

Westerfield says a firearm taken from someone hunting without a permit is very different than a gun used in a homicide. He says there should be consensus against auctioning weapons tied to a murder or a suicide. As for law enforcement needing proceeds from weapons auctions, he says the legislature should provide that.

“If it’s for training, if it’s for equipment and they’re a state agency, why in the world aren’t we funding that in the first place?” says Westerfield.

When the General Assembly convenes in January, legislators could also revisit proposals to require the safe storage of firearms to prevent them from being accessed by children or stolen by criminals. Westerfield says there are already penalties on the books for the reckless use of an improperly stored weapon, but he adds that he’s not sure how strongly that’s actually enforced. He also says while safe storage is important, lawmakers also don’t want to impede a gun owner’s ability to quickly protect themselves or their homes.

Improper firearm storage also extends to vehicles as well.

“People keep them in their car, they don’t lock their car, their guns get stolen, the guns end up in Baltimore, in New York, in Chicago, and people die because nobody’s willing to properly store their guns,” says Bryant.

Beyond any potential new laws, Austin says that responsible gun owners should encourage safe storage among those who are reckless with their firearms.

“There are irresponsible gun owners among us,” says Austin, “and none of us are safe because they are our weakest link,” says Austin.

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Renee Shaw hosts discussions with candidates in the Auditor of Public Accounts and State Treasurer races in the 2023 general election. Scheduled guests: Candidates for Auditor of Public Accounts: Allison Ball, Republican candidate; Kimberley Reeder, Democratic candidate. Candidates for State Treasurer: Michael Bowman, Democratic candidate; Mark Metcalf, Republican candidate. A 2023 KET production.

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Candidate Conversations: Auditor of Public Accounts & State Treasurer - S30 E26

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